Data Dash Crypto currency, | Data, Analytics | Market Trends. What's going on everyone? My name is Nicholas Merten here at Data Dash, and today we have another interview on the DataDash channel.. I am so happy to have two of the founders of a very interesting project that I've, been finding over the past few months.
. We've, been looking at privacy coins in the cryptocurrency space, and this one is definitely one. I've been eyeing.; This is no other than Zcoin, and today I have Reuben as well as Poramin, who have been a part of the project and they are based .
... Actually, you guys can tell a little bit about yourself and everything talk about the project. I don't want to talk for you and we got a good list of questions to go through, and I really love to get a little bit of detail On what Zcoin is all about, but we'll start off with the introduction and you guys can take it away.
Glad to have you.. I am not one of the founders - I am just the community manager., So maybe Poramin can go ahead and start first. Ok.. So you want to play that or later No no, that's. Fine go ahead. So just to introduce.
I'm, the founder of Zcoin and also lead developer.. What I have done before starting Zcoin was, I studied Masters Degree at Johns Hopkins and at the time I'm, also interested in Bitcoin technology during 2013.
. I also do mining and do other things.. I think that maybe we should create a coin, because I am interested in Zerocoin paper because at the same time one of the professor in my school released a paper on Zerocoin and I think I want to implement Zerocoin in one cryptocurrency and at the time I Don't have much knowledge about cryptocurrency, and I think that the way I need to know about is to implement it so that I create Vertcoin to learn the internal mechanism of cryptocurrency.
, which the code base is derived from Bitcoin. As you know that - and I am also interested in ASIC-resistant Proof of Work as well, so at the time I released Scrypt-N Proof of Work that changed internal parameters based on time That & # 39.
S is the first coin that I released and that's. Why I created Vertcoin., I think Vertcoin was one of actually the earlier cryptocurrencies.. I think it was the first QT-based cryptocurrency that actually implements stealth addresses, and I think also what you were saying that the Scrypt was adjusting by itself or it is, was supposed to be difficult to develop an ASIC for that.
So I think it is actually quite interesting to see that a lot of elements of privacy and ASIC resistance are carried over to the new project. So you know it's always been a focus of Poramin.. Maybe you want to talk a bit about Zerovert.
Your first attempt I mean after I was working for Vertcoin. I was working with a team in Vertcoin for a while, and the team became bigger and bigger, and at that time my first intention is. I want to implement Zerocoin into Vertcoin the Zerocoin procol into Vertcoin, and the reason was majority of team.
Didn't agree with me, because at that time the Zerocoin protocol was quite new., And people in my old Vertcoin team thinks that it is quite risky to implement Zerocoin protocol and we can implement Stealth Addresses in Vertcoin, and that is ok and even Though I don't agree with them, but I get along with them.
So I was ok.. I didn't, implement Zerocoin in Vertcoin, but still my intention is to implement Zerocoin for education as well, and even though I don't agree with them, but I get along with them. So I was ok.
. I didn't implement Zerocoin in Vertcoin, but still my intention is to implement Zerocoin for education as well, because that's. My first intention, so I just created Zerovert, Even though I'm, still working with Vertcoin, but I think it's better to create a new coin that uses merged mining technology that can merge mine with Vertcoin, while still using the Zerocoin Protocol, so at the time I create this coin, called Zerovert the name it's, actually a merge between Zerocoin technology and Vertcoin.
. The problem with Zerovert is that, even though I implement it basically, I cannot open source it that time, As you know that when I implement there is nothing called ICO at that time at all. And when I implement it, and even though I finished it, No one Can audit my code actually and I cannot even open source my code as well, because, as you know, that I am not going to get any funds and I want to make Zerovert ahead of the other competitor which, at that time there's.
Anoncoin? That is also working on implementing Zerocoin into their coin. As well. Was that Anoncoin? Yes, it's called Anoncoin at that time.. As you can see, right now, Anoncoin is still there, but I am not sure what is their progress.
And I don't think they were successful in implementing it. So that's, why I chose to close the source and I release this project, and people complain a lot. Why don't you open source, the code. No one is going to use it.
I mean for Zerovert. I am implementing [ Zerocoin ] following the original paper, and I find out later that there is performance problem that once the accummulator size become bigger and bigger. Your spend transaction takes a long time verify so that's.
Why? I think that maybe Zerovert cannot continue, because I cannot open source and the performance is going to be a problem. Other than that when no one can audit my code - and that means it's - easy to do a double spending at the time because It's like, even though no one going to find out what is inside, but even myself later, I found out that maybe this will become a vulnerability that someone can do double spending.
So I think that maybe, if I pursue this way, it won't work so that I just stop this project. and wait until I have funding that can support me to open the source code, and that is the beginning of Zcoin.
. I think one of the things that will be helpful because a lot of people don't know actually know what Zerocoin is.. They often confuse Zerocoin with Zerocash, Zcash and Zcoin, and I think a lot of people when they first come across Zcoin.
They're, like & quot, Oh another Zcash, clone. & quot. I think that is the one of the very key things we want to differentiate ourselves.. So actually, yes, there was a Zerocoin paper and then a Zerocash paper, and so I and I do believe that we share many of the same authors for these papers themselves.
. So, of course, the original authors of Zerocoin then moved on to Zerocash and now are part of the Zcash project, but they are really different. Cryptographic implementations. They both implement zero knowledge proofs, but they don't use the same cryptography.
With Zerocoin. We used what we call RSA accumulators, which is actually RSA technology, and encryption has been around for eons.. Everyone knows RSA cryptography., While with Zcash they actually use zkSNARKs.
Actually, I think very, very recent developments. We're, seeing much more experimental cryptography. I think it is one of the key things despite supply audibility, It will also be interesting for viewers who have never heard how the Zerocoin achieves its anonymity.
Mint. Spend. Repeat.. What does that mean.? A lot of people think it is a Proof of Stake coins.. No, they are not Proof of Stake coins., So basically how Zerocoin work is by implementing a layer on top of the original Bitcoin code and what allows you to do because you know, as you are aware, Bitcoin or your coins have a history that cannot be removed.
. It's permanently stored on the blockchain., So of course you can create new addresses and things like that, but there are ways to tie these addresses together and do analysis because you aren't breaking the transaction flow.
. You always have ways to connect the dots.. There are other implementations that try to mix your transactions with other people to sort of obfuscate it, For example, Dash and currently Pivx, is doing Coinjoin similar to Dash.
But you are limited by the size of how many people are mixing and these people have to be online. That's, a problem, because that means I need to find many people online to mix with, and I think, with Dash's.
Implementation, they use a Masternode to do the mixing and there is a certain degree of trust with the masternodes. We trust them not to log your information and Dash would say we can do several rounds of this.
, But at the end of the day you are still trusting a third party.. It's, not a horrible solution, but there are better ways to achieve. It., What Zerocoin to ask is that you, don't have to trust any sort of the centralized mixer.
You don't even have to have a masternode implemented into Zerocoin itself., But it actually is built into the protocol layer and how It actually works. Is you take one of your coins and you basically destroy it, and that's? What you call a Zerocoin mint.
, You're, creating a Zerocoin., You're minting it. You're. Just burning up an existing Zcoin and turning it into a Zerocoin., So you have a base coin and a Zerocoin.. So basically this sort of proved you burnt up [ the Zcoin ].
This mint transaction is published on the blockchain, so everyone knows there's been a mint transaction and yes, your anonymity isn't. Quite there yet.. It is only when you do the spend transaction the spend transaction is when you convert the Zerocoin and back into Zcoin, basically the base coin, and - and what that does is that newly created coin has no history whatsoever.
, It looks like a freshly mined coin.. So basically, all your transaction history for that coin is gone. Sorry to interrupt, but I think there is a very important fact You know I was watching the Zerocoin video that you have on your website and one of the interesting thing they mention is the big concern With Bitcoin is you can make a transaction with people, but the problem is you don't know where the Bitcoin is coming from.
If it's, a transaction that might be tied with money laundering. You know dark money, and you know in the case of Zerocoin, you protect yourself from that.. You are getting a fresh new coin that has no transaction history, so I think that Zerocoin has one of the best approaches with it, whereas if you just cycle it around with other people through multiple mixed transactions, that money is still there.
, It's, Like with other sort of earlier mechanism is more like plausible deniability, by mixing with three other people, so it might be any one us.. It may not be me, but it's still possibly me., That's, the more than you mix it, but the problem is it's kind of cumbersome.
? If you ever tried Dash, I'm. Actually, one of the early adopters of Dash myself when I tried their private send function that time it was called the Darksend. It took a very long time to actually anonymise, because you have to wait for people to come on to actually actively mix, and what actually happened was that Dash had a constant problems.
Finding people that mix., I think they might've improved from that. Now, but what actually happened was they paid people to do active mixing.? That means the just leave the wallets online to do mixing and they call them liquidity providers.
. It was actually a part of the budget from Dash that was dedicated to that.. I think it was a bit of a cumbersome type of mechanism. So because people were wondering why can't? I tie the mint with the spend and that's, where the zero knowledge proof comes in and how it works is.
When I destroy the coin, I can create a proof that I did destroy a coin, but that proof only proves that I destroyed the coin, but doesn't show, which coin I destroyed. The crux of the zero proof technology.
I can prove something, and only by proving that I did it, but without any other data whatsoever.. I think that is one of the biggest benefits of zero knowledge proofs and I think it's not often emphasized like like Monero, but it's, a different kind of approach.
, But it's, not obfuscation, but total transaction Breakage., I think that's, quite exciting. Yeah. Maybe that's like an overview of Zerocoin that & # 39, how it works.. I completely agree with you, because you know I've, been kind of learning the privacy space over the past few months extensively and zero proof to me has been most captivating approach to it.
. There are ones like Monero out there and some others that have interesting approaches, but zero proof itself seems like sufficient.. If you can destroy the history of the coin previously you have a sense of guarantee and anonymity to it and also how you spend it as well.
. So I think that it is very interesting. The fact that Zerocoin is focusing on zero proof knowledge and I think it's very important.. Again, I think you are on the right track. It's cool, to hear the story you have with it as well and how you got interested in Zerocoin and what was the paper that came out? It was based on & quot Zerocoin Anonymous Distributed.
E-Cash from Bitcoin & quot, that was the original paper that zerocoin was built on and I think the next question that people would ask since Zerocash also uses zero knowledge proofs. And if you take a look at the official Zerocash website and even the Zerocoin.
org website. That is actually owned by the Zerocash people.. They actually mention that that Zerocoin is no longer developed, and now Zerocash is the new thing that we should be using. Fair enough. They have their own reasoning for that.
. A lot of people are saying you took, took this abandoned project, and why are you continuing with this sort of development of that and I think maybe we can probably cover the key differences between our implementations and actually Zerocoin, I think, is the first implementation.
Zero knowledge proof in cryptocurrency and what Zerocash actually does was supposed to improve a lot of the usability aspects of Zerocoin, and I think we have to cover some of the perceived weaknesses of Zerocoin.
. I think the first iteration of zerocoin, the zerocoin proofs, the spend proofs, was it 40 kilobytes. I think that was the first iteration right And then later on, it was reduced to 25 kilobytes and there was actually another paper after that that downgraded the encryption to achieve.
Was it 10 kilobytes or something like that, and I think there was a lot of discussion because it was actually supposed to be a Bitcoin improvement and, of course, like people within Bitcoin were like & quot this size.
You know 10 kilobytes, 25, kilobytes, 40. Kilobytes is way too much to store on the blockchain & quot, and I think it was one major criticisms of Zerocoin at that stage, and I guess that's. One of the reasons why they developed Zerocash, where the proof size is only 1 kilobyte.
. Zcash proof sizes are only one kilobyte, so it's like a huge decrease in proof sizes, and on top of that you know. First of all, with zerocoin, you have a sort of break it down into fixed denominations, which is similar to Dash and Monero, where you have to break down the thing into indistinguishable fixed denominations.
So you cannot tell one coin from the next. With zerocash the way they hide the transaction values there's, no more fixed denomination that you need to burn. Every coin that is minted in Zerocash, becomes a possible mint.
And the other thing they also Allow is that you can send now send the anonymised Zerocoin equivalent in Zcash called z-addresses. You can send funds to each other, while with zerocoin you always have to convert it back to the base coin.
. So, of course, when you look at it like that, it seems that & quot. Why are you using this inferior type of system to Zerocash & quot? Arguably Zerocash has a much smaller proof sizes. It's easier to use, if only they have this fixed denominations, though, and you can transfer coins to each other without having to convert them back into it.
The base coin., But to achieve that they actually have certain tradeoffs and I think, one of biggest ones we've, been talking a lot about, is the supply audibility, meaning that you can always audit at any time the total supply of coins that are Existing and you know that someone is not creating coins out of thin air because actually there was a bug in Bitcoin quite a few years back where there was a buffer overflow bug.
Billions of coins. How many coins were there? Poramin Was it. It was a maximum of integer at that time so that, as you know, the variable in C++ there is the maximum value it can be so that what they use they try to do buffer overflow, actually integer overflow.
The money become the maximum number of integer that at that time is about 4 billion something.. I just checked the Bitcoin had a value overflow incident. Two addresses receive over 92.2 billion Bitcoins each.
. So there was this huge inflation, but because you could audit, you saw that the supply something was wrong.. They could make it and reverse it. So you know it's, not as if these types of problems have not existed before, but it is even more important in a setup where you are using zero knowledge proofs, because now you actually have a mechanism built into the coin to generate coins.
Unlike in Bitcoin, where, basically, your coins are generated through the mining process. And I think both Zerocoin and Zerocash use something we call a trusted setup.. A trusted setup is where you generate some initial parameters and you have to destroy those parameters, because if you don't destroy them, people can forge coins.
That means they can generate coin out of thin air. In Zerocoin. You can still audit you add it all up. You look at the mint and spends.. Does it still add up to what it should be, and you can always do that.
So whatever happens, like somebody leaks the trapdoor or there's, a problem with that you can always say. Yes, there's, a problem there, let's, fix it.. It's, still pretty bad. It's, quite a bad problem, but at least you know that you can detect it.
, And the good thing is. Even if you leak these initial parameters, your anonymity isn't broken it's, just the forgering part., Which is also same with Zerocash, in a sense that if you break those parameters, you can forge Zcash, but you couldn'T break the anonymity.
, But with Zcash, because the transaction amounts are hidden and the way its constructed, especially when you have a whole set of z-addresses, where the balances are not able to be seen. If there's, a problem with their trusted setup.
If there's, a problem with the coding or any type of issues you can't detect it. And that's quite scary, because bugs always happen. Even in Zcash, there were multiple audits and many vulnerabilities came up and That's, all fine, these things happen.
. But do you have a check to make sure this isn't happening so that you know you can fix it. And it's really particularly important in the zero knowledge proof setup. Where you are generating new coins, and also especially when you are doing a trusted set up.
That's awesome., I was gonna say it's important too, because one of the nice things about Zcoin is. It has a very limited supply as well and at least the circulating supply on Coinmarketcap it's, saying it's about 2.
9 million right now. So I love the fact that it is a very low quantity coin and at the same time, you have these checks and balances to check. If a bug comes up, you'll, know where to find it and where to fix it.
. So I think that is really awesome.. The other thing that I was going to ask you is: we talked a little bit about both of you as well and Zcoin in general.. How big is the team for Zcoin? I was just curious to see.
Maybe the scale of the team, or maybe contributors to the Zerocoin protocol and everything like that.. I really like to learn a little bit more about that.. I will focus on developer team first and Reuben will follow with [ .
.. ] For developers. We have Me, as the lead developer is located in Bangkok, Thailand, and we also have one of our developers located in Vietnam and another developer called Aizen located in Germany and right now we have another developer came from Moscow, Russia as well, that begin working with us.
. Our team members that are focusing on development part and a break down of each person.. For me, I have introduced myself before. For Aizen. He has a PhD in Machine Learning and he does stuff about C++ and low-level stuff and his specialty helping various C++ stuff as well.
, And it's hard for me to pronounce his name. Usually we call him SN and he is from Vietnam.. He has a lot of software development experience. He also got into Imagine Cup, that is about software design for Microsoft and computer olympics, that kind of stuff during his career and right now he is also helping us on core upgrade.
from 0.8 to 0.13 Bitcoin Core code.. We're gonna release soon And for the Russian guy. We only had him on board for a week. Basically, he a working experience in C++ like 17 years and There are also 2 other developers that are bit separate from core, and I guess there is Poramin Aizen, SN and Saran, that's, helping you and I forgot the Russian's.
Name, sorry, was it Peter And we, on top of that also we have djm34.. I think it's. Quite a well known mining developer. He has developed a lot of binaries for X11 and a lot of stuff., So he is actually a very recognised miner developer.
And he particulary important when dealing with MTP, which we will talk on. We actually have a Solidity developer called Tadhg from Ireland and he & # 39. S actually recently joined us fulltime to help us develop Zerocoin on Ethereum.
That's really itself an interesting side project. He doesn't actually deal with the core itself, but he's, implementing Zerocoin mixer on Ethereum.. I think it's, really an interesting project. Eventually, we want to do atomic swaps with Ethereum, where you can can sort of trade Ethereum with Zcoin in a decentralized manner that's, quite a nice synergy there, and I think that's for the development team and I think for For the communications and community side, there is Reuben that's me.
And there's. Actually another guy that joined us really early called Sebastian. Sebastian is actually quite interesting because he's, a German, but I'm. Actually what we call a'banana & # 39. I'm, yellow on the outside and white on the inside.
. My Chinese isn't very good, but I think Sebastian is an egg where he's white on the outside and yellow on the inside.. He actually studied Mandarin. In China - and he speak Chinese really well., His main job was when we brought our new investor.
Tim Lee was to act as the liaison with the Chinese community to help reach out to them. I guess he's, a really good bridge, and he also helps to maintain all the relationships with the Chinese exchanges and few groups and all the other Chinese communities which cannot use Telegram or Whatsapp.
Yeah.. That's. Awesome that you have a bridge there with the difference in whatever country you trying to expand to China, especially you want to make sure the eastern part of the world is where the money is.
, I think it's cool. He went and learned Mandarin because Mandarin is the first language I am hoping to learn.. I tried learning Spanish, but it wasn't for me. I couldn't pick it up but Mandarin, even though it is more difficult.
I would love to because I want to make a trip out to Asia. Go see a lot of countries out there. Mandarin is an awesome language. If you go to China and stuff., I think I definitely have to learn. That's, a funny analogy.
The analogy between you and the other guy. It was so cool and having a global community is very important for stuff like this, and it shows you that cryptocurrency is gonna break that barrier down.. There used to be very centralized projects in specific countries, and now this global community coming together over something like privacy.
. I think that's, a really motivational message as well. It's, really awesome to hear how you guys have been pretty successful so far and built a global community around it. What else to cover on Well, I was thinking that I Was gonna ask was kind of the long term objectives? What do you see? Kind of.
, For example, Zcoin - has been around for a decent amount of time. But kind of a long term span next, 5 or 10 years. What do you all see, Zcoin, really being outside of just privacy coin? It may be, it might be a global currency for privacy and stuff.
You know what really is the final overall objective of Zcoin as a whole, the philosophical kind of view I mean right now. Of course, we don't know Right now. The focus is really occupying all our time.
Right now to improve Zerocoin protocol and a lot of people think that the Zerocoin is dead. It's abandoned there's, no new developments on it and that's really simply not true, and I think that also sets us apart from the competition.
We are not just going to implement the Zerocoin protocol as it was first written in the paper.. We actually seek to develop and build upon them and I think a lot of the so called perceived problems with Zerocoins, for example, the large proof sizes, the trusted setup.
The trusted setup is a big thing cause a lot of people bang us on that. I think we are slightly going off topic, but it is important that we cover the trusted setup issue. I think most people have heard about the Zcash ceremony that involved 6 people and multi party setup, where, as long as they did not collude with each other, the parameters should if the protocol works correctly should be destroyed, and none of them actually have that secret.
. Now, of course, some people ..., I am not a cryptographer - I don't, know how good that thing is.. I trust that it should be correct, but there is still that element of & quot. I don't trust them. I don't trust these people to actually say they have actually destroyed it & quot and who knows whether that setup was correct.
, But what Zerocoin's? Our current setup right now was actually taking parameters from 1991 from the RSA Factoring Challenge where it was actually a competition organized by RSA back when it was still not corrupted.
. Sorry guys, but you know that there was a whole sort of drama where NSA came into play with RSA, but this was way back when RSA was the one that was exposing the Government's, Clipper Chip, it was actually a really good organization, then, And it was an academic challenge to how hard it is to factor numbers which is the basic premise of RSA cryptography.
And there was actually a USD 200,000 bounty on RSA-2048, which is what we are using to break that encryption. And they did do certain steps to make sure that those parameters were destroyed.. Maybe you say & quot.
How do I know that RSA truly did what they say & quot, but the key thing is you: don't have to trust us. the developers, because we definitely don't know., And the other thing is because we have a supply.
Audibility there is a problem you can detect it and of top of that it's like it has USD 200,000 bounty for such long time. No one has claimed it. It's already been discontinued, but it was up for many many years, but no one has claimed it.
So there's, a good chance that it's secure.. But one of the things that we are developing is there's, actually something called Sigma protocol which is actually a way to remove trusted setup altogether.
. You still can have your Zerocoin setup, but you don't, remove the trusted setup requirement., and there is a paper and some libraries actually sort of waiting for us to use, and another good thing is that it actually brings down proofs sizes really small.
. I think our initial estimates was about 1 kilobyte, so it was kind of very compatitive with Zcash as well. In that regard. I was still evaluating the performance tradefoffs, but the fact is that you know Zerocoin development, isn't at a stand still and we recently came up across another paper, actually called & quot Extended Zerocoin & quot.
We thought it was really exciting.. We haven't, looked into too much detail, so we haven't made any public announcement on this. Probably this would be the first one. Extended. Zerocoin actually allows many of the advantages of Zcash.
. You have your hidden amounts, you have no more fixed denominations and send to each other., But we are still making sure. Does it retain supply audibility? It is worth the tradeoffs., So we are still exploring that and we are still at a brainstorming stage for that, and what we are thinking is that we may even offer several types of accumulator schemes depending on what you want.
You want to use the original Zerocoin. You want to use the Sigma protocol version., I was still thinking about it, but I guess that the idea is that Zerocoin development is not at a stand still. and I think it would be sort of well its.
Not You shouldn't, simply abandon a technology just because some people say that it is abandoned.. I want to add more.. Even with the current Zerocoin library we already fixed some things, Our advisor Tim Ruffing.
He found some vulnerability inside as well.. So right now we actually improved the origin Zerocoin that Matthew D. Green and Ian Miers created that time.. It's, not just using their library and implementing it, but we are also fixing it and improving it.
As well. libzerocoin is the proof of concept. Software library of Zerocoin. There's, still a lot of work from this library to actually implement it. First of all, but original libzerocoin was coded by the guys who are now at Zerocash, and we are actually finding a lot of ways to improve it and also [ fix ] certain vulnerabilities inside.
. We actually have the code ready, but we have it implemented on the old core and we're transitioning to the new core, so we hope to get these fixes in, and that means all coins that use Zerocoin as a base will benefit from this Improvement so that's, why we really really pushing not only pushing the new technologies with Zerocoin, but also improving the implementation, to make it more secure for everyone.
Back to the longterm goal. I think the other thing was that we wanted to continue to address is that if you've taken a look at our roadmap, there's, a lot of ideas of decentralization not only on the mining perspective but like on market places.
On voting systems - and things like these can be Zerocoin can be used like a sort of a voting system as well. So I think the whole idea is that we want to be free. We want financial privacy and lately a lot of people talk about smart contracts.
I do think that space is really really crowded, and you know at the end of the day we are here to create a currency that is free and decentralized, and, yes, it may have some applications and probably we also have a decentralized marketplace: decentralized voting system where You can use Zcoin for that, but I don't think we're gonna build some sort of smart contract type of system.
. I completely agree with you on that, but implementations of the smart contracts, its kind of become like a buzzword kind of machine learning, is a buzzword for, like Silicon Valley, all these talk of smart contracts, smart contracts, it is kind of the sexy topic right now and The thing with smart contracts is yes, you can apply to so many things and they are very powerful but thats more on the application side of blockchain technology and building applications.
. In this case, if you just wan na build a really nice private currency, that can guarantee is going to give you a sense of anonymity, make sure you are getting secure money that has no previous transaction history and something, for example, you are making.
You are mentioning how you can mix it with Ethereum and transacting between Ethereum. So if you can get those implementations in I mean your objective is completely fine: building a private transferable currency between individuals, over decentralized applications.
, I think its fantastic. I really think that you have something going here. I am so happy to see that you guys really have a working piece of technology going and also there's, a lot of naysayers, saying that you guys aren't working on it.
. I am glad you are pushing through it, you're, ignoring them, and you continue to work on. It really seems like a cool project., and I think one of the things you know a lot of anonymity coins have issues with is conversions to fiat, especially with regulated currencies where, even now, a lot of the exchanges were like & quot, You're, An anonymous coin: we're, not going to list you & quot and I think even Monero is such a big established project and it's only very recently, getting on some big exchanges.
. But even then, once the regulated exchanges come up, there is a big question mark on how Monero will get those fiat gateways as well., And I think this is why it is really important to talk about cross chain interoperability whereby you can convert to Ethereum.
You can convert to Bitcoin in a sort of decentralized manner, because as long as cryptocurrencies ... like we can use Bitcoins'fiat gateways, we can use Ethereum's, fiat gateways, they will have their fiat gateways and it will be much easier For them to do that, and also we can easily have a decentralized way to convert those coins, and you can then convert it into your fiat money and, of course, people are saying & quot.
Well, you know doesn't that break anonymity & quot. Well, I think you have to accept you're, going to convert it back into fiat. You are getting out of the privacy zone.. There is a privacy bubble that's formed with Zcoin, but once you step out, you got to play by the rules.
, I mean sure that there are of course other ways like P2P like localbitcoins stuff. I mean that's. A possibility., Decentralized exchange are also something we're, really excited about, and obviously right now, if you take a look at the existing decentralized exchanges, they work, but they are not really fun to use and that's, hurting adoption, but eventually, Hopefully, when things do pick up and people see the problems that centralized exchanges are having, I mean even now, Poloniex has a big question mark right and the whole issue of governments cracking down on exchanges.
. I think there maybe a tipping point whereby crap we do have to use decentralization and that's when Zerocoin, hopefully once we implement our atomic swaps and all those things that we can then go into like we don't have to Worry too much about fiat gateways.
Because I know Dash has sort of gone of. I think they've, not so much focused on the privacy aspect. Aspect right, now.. I think. Actually they are more like & quot. Do you want basic privacy & quot? Yes, we can use Dash, but now they even have a partnership with AML/KYC company Coinfirm and they are monitoring the block chain .
... So I mean that's, fine, that's. One way to achieve it, I mean that's, just a different view of how the things should be achieved. But I guess that's, one of the long term goals, and I think that one of the things that we should be talking about is well.
You know decentralization. You have to have a decentralized Proof of Work system. I think this is a big problem with many many currencies right now like Bitcoin it's insane, look at all those miners in China dominating all the hashrate.
Or similarly with Dash right now, where X11 was supposed to be ASIC resistant, I mean can't blame them that's. What the technology was, they already chained a bunch of hashing, algorithms together and said & quot.
Yes, this is ASIC resistant & quot and now Bitmain has the freaking ASIC for Dash right and Scrypt as well, and I guess, like the whole idea, is once you reach a certain point of market cap becomes more economical to develop specialized machines for that.
So we have to have a Proof of Work mechanism that makes it really really really hard, while not sacrificing on performance.. You know there are a lot of so-called ASIC-resistant algorithms out there and a lot of times they're, only ASIC-resistant up to the point until they hit the marketcap that really big and worth developing an ASIC for.
. So this thing we call Merkle Tree Proof of Work algorithm. We call it MTP it's actually done by the same authors that did Equihash for Zcash and they said that Equihash is not bad, quite a good algorithm, but we feel that for really long term ASIC resistance.
We have to make sure that the miners use as much much much memory as possible.. I think Scrypt, which was supposed to be memory hard, only uses 128 kilobytes of RAM insignificant. That's, why? You have Scrypt miners now, x11 doesn't, use any memory and even something like Cryptonight used by Monero used about 2 megabytes.
. All these are quite insignificant. Amounts.. Now let's. Talk about MTP, which reference implementation uses 2 Gigabytes, ( GB ) and can even go up to 10 GB or more so suddenly it's. Are you really gonna fit 10 GB on an ASIC? Then you'll, be limited by the thing.
. Now, I think one of the issues with large memory types of mining schemes last time was that if you have a really huge requirement for miners to use of memory nodes that verify that Proof of Work need that memory as well, which is gonna, be a Real problem, you know You are going to have nodes with 10 GB of RAM.
. Probably not. It is gonna be a real pain. So MTP allows the miner to work really hard, while the verifiers only need a very small fraction of RAM to actually verify it.. So the verifiers have an easy work, while the miners have a very hard work.
, And I think it is really interesting. That means that if we assume that this assumption that developing ASICs gonna be hard with large amounts of memory, not because just because of cost, but because of the memory latency, where you are constrained by the interaction between the memory and the computing.
Because you cannot optimize computing processors, very quickly., You just get the ASIC develop that part, but majority of the algorithm is filling up that memory, interacting with that memory.. You are bound by that memory's delay.
, so its not just because of cost. It's also because of interaction of the memory that make it ASIC resistant. and I guess, like MTP, actually allows large amounts of memory to be used while keeping the verifiers really really lightweight, so that actually increase decentralization as well.
. So I think that's, one of the things we are really developing right now.. We actually have it running on testnet at the moment, but we actually launched a bounty of USD 10,000 for the MTP and USD 2500 for the implementation bounty.
That means whether the implementation is correct, while the USD 10,000 was whether the paper itself is correct. and we actually have very good submissions and there are bounty claims and there are valid ones, and it has actually spurred the MTP's original authors.
To look at it. and all this so far, all the vulnerabilities there are fixes for all of them, but they are just thinking what's, the best way to do it By fixing it is this gonna open another type of issue, and right Now I think the researchers have begun revising their MTP paper and we feel that, yes, although we actually can technically launch MTP now, but then, given the disclosed vulnerabilities, the optimizations, we think & quot, We are not in a hurry.
We're, still quite a small coin. & quot & quot. Let's, just stick with the current algorithm first and then, when they come out with their revised paper & quot & quot, Let's. Do it. & quot. We are ready to take advantage of all those things because I don't think it's.
Gon na be vastly different. It's still gonna be MTP. Maybe some parameters changed, maybe some additional checks. So I think that's, something that actually Poramin and his team coded from scratch.. They didn't even have a software library to build from.
It was just a freaking academy paper that they had to do, and it was definitely not easy. We were actually scolding Poramin & quot. Why do you keep on picking up all the difficult task? Do some easy things like make the wallet more fancy.
& quot? I like how you all are eager to push it out.. I have seen so many stuff in the cryptocurrency space that's so eager to push out new. We got this new feature new way of mining. You know I mean honestly.
I think that's good., Do it right the first time and you are on a perfect mindset and Poramin, I think, is pushing you cause. He wants to make it as good as possible.. I like how you guys are set on that.
. That's, really good ...! Well anyways! I got ta, say everyone. I do have to cut off here, but I wan na say it has been Reuben and Poramin. It was so nice having you on. Like I said I am optimistic on Zcoin.
. It was really nice talking with you all and kind of hearing the journey that you guys are having with it, and you are still doing it it because I think that's, good, it kind of cleared the smoke. If there's.
Anyone out there that thought you guys aren't working on it.. I think you did a very good job. Answering the questions.. I really appreciate having you on.. Is there anything before we end the interview? Would you wan na leave some documents, maybe down in the description like a link or something.
? I'd. Leave that as a link. One of the questions, I think you did ask that. Maybe just want to touch very quickly because you know Zerocoin is one of our major developments right and Pivx. If you know they are developing their own Zerocoin implementation and we think actually that's, a good thing, because, first of all, they say that they are not gonna, be using our code base, so that's interesting.
. We would like to see that, and hopefully once they release, we can see their code base., But it's always good to have multiple implementations. But I do think that the differentiators that look - we are not just taking the Zerocoin pushing past that I think.
On top of that, I do think that there are certain questions that make me a bit worried about Pivx, because I think when they first sort of promoting Zerocoin, they were talking about compulsory minting and we don't know how that is possible with The current Zerocoin scheme, because it will just really clog up the network with the verifications.
, We did ask that they said they solved it., We're, really interested to see what they have as well, but the other thing that was very concerning was when We were talking, we actually posted an article on Steemit on certain things on our development.
. Pivx came in and said: hey we're developing Zerocoin too, but they don't agree with us on what happens if the initial parameters are broken., We are saying that forgery happens. Anonymity is not broken.
, They are saying the other way around, which is very confusing because we have checked with cryptographers. This is always been the case We just worried. Like & quot, do you guys really understand what you guys are doing & quot? We hope that they do, or maybe they got some other implementation - that isn't Zerocoin.
, But I do think that it's, a very basic thing for those sort of questions.. We actually welcome them to develop Zerocoin and they actually have developed a really nice graphical interface. When we saw it like & quot Wow.
That's. Really nice & quot - and I do think that you know independent development of this technology - is a bit yeah. You know you have some concerns and I don't think we should just say & quot. Oh, they're gonna implement Zerocoin and you guys are obsolete.
& quot. We have a lot of other things in the pipeline as well. Seriously. I can't wait.. If you have any links, I & # 39, ll put them down below, and people can continue to read up on, but I think you all got something going here.
. I think it's. Gon na be cool. I just like seeing growth in the privacy space that's, gonna be a topic that will continue to grow.. It was kind of the forefront of what got cryptocurrency where it is, but you know it lost its pace because of the news headlines.
As always., The price of Bitcoin is going up and we got Ethereum as well.. Thank you so much for having us on. I really appreciate it. It's, a great honor to have us. We all woke up early for this.. No, I appreciate it.
You are making time for that. I have people, I talk to all over the world and I think it's cool at the same time, but it's hard to get people on at the same time. You know this kind of global community and the fact that you have a team like that, its all over the place and you manage to really do all this.
I mean that really does impresses me. So I appreciate having you all on. I can't, wait to see where it goes, and I guess that will be it for the interview.. But if you all want to find more, please check down below in the description.
I have some links there most likely on Zcoin.. I'll. Have the website link as well as some details if you wan na learn a little bit more, but I guess that's it for the interview., Reuben and Poramin. Thank you all so much for coming on.
I really do appreciate it. It's, been really great. Data Dash what's going on everyone? My name is Nicolas Merton here at Data, and today we have yet another interview on the data channel. I'm, so happy to have two of the founders of a very interesting project.
I've, been finding over the past few months. We've, been looking at privacy coins and the cryptocurrency space, and this one is definitely one that I've been eyeing, and this is no other than Z coin, and today I have Reuben and as well Poorman, who have been part Of the project - and they're based out, actually you guys can tell a little bit about yourself and everything talk about the project.
I don & # 39. T want to talk for you, so we & # 39. Ve got a good list of questions we'll go through and I really love them to kind of give a little bit of detail on what Zeke ones all about. But we & # 39, ll start off with an introduction and you guys can take it away glad to have you [ Music ].
I'm father of see, coy and also Leederville lead developer. And what would me I mean like what I have done before before studying our employees? I study much study Queen in her job softly at the table.
I also interested in Bitcoin technology to England, 2013 at the family's life. I'm, also do like mining and auditing at you. I think that maybe I should created called because I was interested in our CEO for paper because at the same time bound to what one of professor in my school wishes to be.
He released the paper of zero point and I think I want to implement your point answer as their one of I mean. I want to even see what one crypto just one-fifth of currency - I don't, have knowledge about cryptocurrency that's, man and I think the way that I need to know about it is to implement it, so that uh, I create Word point to learn in turn.
Our mechanism of immigrants II, which is the code base, is the right form because, as you know, that I also interested in our basics researched and what works as well. So at the time led, sir, I mean you changed engine our parameter, that's.
Why I create with point - and I think point was one of Italy but earliest one - the earlier cryptocurrencies, I think it was properly. I think it was the first QT base, the currency they actually implement.
Stealth addresses and - and I think also what you were doing - is that what you were saying that the script was like was adjusting by itself so supposedly difficult to develop easy, so that so I think it's actually quite interesting to see that, in A lot of this elements of privacy and basic resistance have carried over to the new project, so you know it's always been a focus of our net yeah.
Maybe you want to talk a bit about zero, but your first attempt - and I mean like after I met a girl but boy I will eat with Steve - I mean even with us for a while and she become bigger and at that time early days I mean My first intention is, I was me Amanda, but I mean if you meant zero call into a car at that time.
With events, you're, far better form into a pod, and we saw his maturity of the Unison. Didn't agree with me because at a time to point to the positive, lightning and yo it might even my awesome thing that I mean pirate party.
He made a something that it is published. This key treatment so called before at that time and we can implement, are still a bit input point and there is okay, I mean, and I even though I don't agree with them, but I get along with him so that I had it Happen: okay, I did your corresponding with toys, but still my intention between human 30.
4 calibration as well, because that is my first intention to me. So I just created sure that, even though I still would you know it red koi, but I think better create a new point that you sing much money, energy and Bush mining with that boy.
Why we still using support for the poem. So, at the time I create this Boise horse yoga that especially actually worse, it means your continuity named co-con and what point so that is crossing over that.
That is the beginning of the problem with their CEO was Easter, even though I implemented. Basically, I cannot open Saudi that's. How me first, as you know, that when I you meant there is nothing cause I see or at a time at all, when I I implemented an even though I finishes like me like no one I mean no one can audit my code actually, and I cannot Even open source, my course as well as you know that I don't get any finer, and I want to make 0 what a hiss of auto company dervish and that Rhonda is a unemployed yeah also working on.